Yesterday, Amy McCullough and I (Casey Jarman) completed work on the beast that we’ve attempted to tame over the course of the last month. The article, Sonic Youth—which attempts to point out a few holes in Portland’s otherwise impressive music scene—is something that we’re both pretty excited about. We hope it lends itself to conversations about all-ages Portland, and things that can make this city’s music scene even better.

Like any long-form article, though, we interviewed way more people and obtained way more information than we could fit into one little cover story. So what we’ve posted here is a collection of interviews with characters that both were and weren’t featured in the final cut of the story. More bonus stuff—including a long talk with Todd Fadel about his old venue, Meow Meow, and an extended Q&A with Randy Bemrose of Junkface—will come sometime after this hectic Musicfest weekend. For now, either click on a name in the glossary, or scroll down to start reading.

Q&A Glossary
ALLISON CARTER, Crystal Ballroom
JEFF URQUHART, Satyricon
JEN OLESEN, Valentines
ROBYN WILLIAMS, PCPA
WESTON SANSEAA, Grape Drink
STEVE PHARO, OLCC
CARY CLARKE, PDX Pop Now!
SHANNON STEWART, All-Ages Movement Project
SKYLER NORWOOD, Point Juncture, WA
ARYA IMIG, KPSU DJ

————

ALLISON CARTER, Talent Buyer for the Crystal Ballroom

On her old gig at Eugene’s WOW Hall:
[The WOW hall] succeeds in that it’s community owned—nobody’s there to make a bunch of money. I was a volunteer for five years and on staff for five years, and I got paid hardly anything. It’s a labor of love kind of thing. What you have is a community supporting a community there. It’s a little different model. Not to be all Eugenian, “woo, woo,” but it has great energy. It just does.

On holes in OLCC logic:
There’s the theater laws that, I swear, are very arbitrary. There are certain things, like if there’s an intermission, or if it’s seated, and then I think one thing that is really interesting is that sporting events don’t have those same kinds of restrictions that music venues have to comply with… Thirsty Thursday? I mean, hello! I can tell you, for sure, that’s what I go there for [to drink]. There’s a major discrepancy there, that art gets put in a different category…I think they just make it up as they go.

On all-ages shows at the Crystal:
You know, with that moat, nobody likes that moat up there. Nobody wants it. But that’s where we make our money is in our bar sales. So it’s very critical that we accommodate that.

The cold hard truth of it is that if you don’t have bar sales…you can only sell so many sodas and waters. It’s hard to keep a venue afloat. Even if the bands are doing really well, most of that money goes to advertising and to the bands. The promoters or the venue don’t keep really any of the ticket sales, a small amount after all the expenses. It’s the beverages that are really where you’re gonna make money if you’re gonna make any at all.

We like to be able to accommodate all ages, but when we can do a 21 and over show and it makes sense, we love it, ‘cause it’s less staffing, the room is better, it’s open, it’s not divided, it’s great. It’s just better all around.

Like I said, a lot of this comes from the band. Mostly, artists want it to be all ages. Even if they sell three tickets to a 17 year old, that’s really important to them. They want to sell their CDs. Everybody wants everyone to succeed, but they’re more concerned in reaching their audience and selling their CDs, more so than our bar [sales].

On Portland’s dying all-ages club scene:
It’s the smaller clubs that suffer the most.The smaller clubs can’t afford that staffing, the staffing that they need to be able to sell alcohol.

On house shows:
It’s definitely, definitely a result of there being a lot of bands and this being a great town for music and not being enough all-ages venues. Because, obviously, if they were big enough, they could play here. There’s no smaller size club.

JEFF URQUHART, co-owner of Satyricon

On now-defunct all-ages Portland clubs going under:
They just weren’t professionally ran. They had the right idea, they just didn’t have their shit together.

For the most part, until about 2 years ago, the all-ages venues were just exactly that, a kid who decided to pay 500 bucks for rent on this space from this dude who just had it sitting there and talked him into putting a PA in there and running it like a basement show. And I think that does, can, hurt it. You have to [run it by the book.] You can’t run an all-ages venue without a bar or a restaurant, you really can’t. The expenses are too high. You can’t do it off just the door. I think that’s why those places never really lasted. That and they just weren’t run properly. It’s a tough business. You can’t just pass around a hat at a show and hope that you can pay rent.

On house show venues vs. proper venues:
There’s something to be said for an actual real sound system, having a bar where it’s legal and you don’t have to worry about neighbors complaining and shutting you down. Their [all-ages clubs like Food Hole, Davey Jones Locker, Solid State] biggest problem is that they want to get the room for nothing. And that’s how those places get shut down and everything gets pushed into houses, and it’s great, but the bands don’t get the exposure they deserve. Some bands don’t want it, ‘cause they don’t care. But at some point, [bands] like Against Me! who were in those basement situations and house show deals moved on. At some point you have to take it to the next level.

I think a lot of the people who [host house shows] have their own beliefs that are very anti business and the man and all that. I think that, for a long time, I know some people that probably thought I was lame or whatever ‘cause I did shows and had ads in the Mercury. Not lame, but maybe thought I was something else. Just being a business automatically makes you the man.
I’m just trying to do it, you know…you have to do it right, or it’s just not gonna last.

On re-opening Satyricon:
I was sooo worried. I was like, “Dude, people are really not gonna like this.” They’re gonna come in here and be [say], “What? There’s soda pop and candy? I can’t drink.” It’s a completely different thing. I was worried about backlash and going into bars and overhearing people talk about, “Oh, I went to Satyricon, that fucking place sucks.” You know, “Not what it used to be. Now it’s all kiddie shows.” I’m amazed. I’ve heard very, very little. I mean occasionally I’ve heard a person go, “I can’t drink and watch. This ain’t what it used to be.” Those are people I don’t even care about. There’s a lot of really old time people that have been here a long time that I really, really respect, and they’re excited. They’re ecstatic that this place is back and it’s all ages. They love that.

There was brief discussion of keeping it 21 and up. Primarily, I just like all-ages. I like dealing with the bands and the kids and the people. The thing is, just about all bands, almost every band…okay, a lot of bands want to play all-ages. It’s about the music, not about getting drunk. There’s enough drinking places in town, but there’s not enough places for kids to go hear music.

JEN OLESEN, booker at Valentine’s

On switching to 21 and up:
We were lucky, ‘cause in the first couple years, we had some really good support. We’ve had a really great family come through, and it was important to stick around, you know?

We just wanted to make it a sustainable venture that would be around for more than a couple years. There would be full nights, and then I would count out and the end of the night and I would be like, “Ohmigod, I can’t believe that we didn’t make that.” You know, you have that number in your head. And to people’s credit, not everyone wants to go to a show and have a full dinner. [laughs] It’s challenging. Time and time again, I’d have a great show or the house would be full, and then I’d see half the house leave to go get a drink at the Tube. And you can’t blame people. Nobody wants to buy 10 beers.

On the possibility of change in OLCC rules:
That would be amazing. When I think about that, I’m like, “Oh god yes, I wish and hope that that exists soon and will exist. It really was hard for me to give [the all-ages] part of the space up.

In a space that really prioritizes the kind of creative exchange that I think a lot of places in our town do, it would be really nice to be able to invite everyone.

[Being all ages], to me, makes a community space, or a venue space, [it] enriches it so much more. And I think that there’s a huge disconnect…in the way our country perceives alcohol. The two can coexist, you know, and not be damaging to one or the other. It’s really odd the stronghold that [the OLCC] has in this state. It seems to lack the foresight into what makes people tick. It’s been a problem for a long time now.

On house shows (and Valentine’s place in Portland’s music scene):
Portland is of the size now where we’re kind of in this really weird limbo period, where there seems to be this really beautiful culture of house shows that are, [there’s] a very DIY element going on, and then there’s the venue like the Doug Fir or the Crystal or whatever, and, for as strange as Portland can be, they seems so polarized. And I always liked to at least pretend that I was bridging, that we were bridging that gap.

ROBYN WILLIAMS, executive director of the Portland Center for the Performing Arts

On the PCPA losing its liquor license a year ago:
Of all the places, you wouldn’t think it would be us. We’re being held to a different standard. How are we different from the Aladdin? [The OLCC] hasn’t been able to give us a very good answer. We sit here while the slow wheels grind; in the meantime, everyone else is getting to sell alcohol. It just makes me crazy.

The law excludes concert halls. That just doesn’t make sense.

On problems in OLCC process:
Clearly, they’re understaffed. When every venue starts sending in [control] plans, what kind of turnaround are we going to have?

The rules right now [are] just too vague and open to interpretation, and that doesn’t serve anyone well. It gets into battles of interpretation.

WESTON SANSEAA, owner of Grapedrink

On why/how Grapedrink current exists as an all-ages venue with a full bar:
About 2-3 years ago, the top level of the building…was mostly a restaurant—it wasn’t a drinking establishment—and when I took over and started this whole Grapedrink thing, they had never changed the regulations with the OLCC. They had never submitted the different floorplans or anything like that. So I come into the OLCC saying, “Hey, this happened, please shut me down, etc. etc.” So pretty much we’re doing is operating under what the old restaurant had.

I had to reapply for our liquor license. The way things are right now is really fantastic, but I’m not expecting them to last much longer. I’d really be thrilled if they could just leave it as it is [but] I’m kind of just waiting for the phone call or when the inspector shows up and just gives me crappy news.

On dealing with the OLCC:
My experience with them, you know, the rules do suck and stuff like that, but the inspector I’ve been dealing with—maybe he just really likes me or something—he’s a pretty decent guy. He’s been helping me out as much as he can. He gives me lots of heads up on laws. It doesn’t seem like he’s out to get me. He’s just out to be a stickler for stuff.

On current OLCC rules and regulations:
The thing that gets me is that, apparently, the OLCC was originally organized by restaurants and bars in order to regulate it so they could continue to serve liquor without being sued and so on. And now the OLCC’s just like this crappy monster that ruins everyone. It really just kind of gets ridiculous on some things. Like the amount of table space I have to have in order to serve hard liquor, I just don’t get it. It’s stupid.

On his unique situation as a 19-year-old bar owner:
I’m 19. I’m about to turn 20, Sept. 7th. Technically, I can’t even manage my own staff. You know, whoever my bartender is or whoever’s 21 who’s around is technically the manager, but I’m telling them what to do. Between [the inspector], me and the law, we kind of know that that’s not the case.

If the place does become 21 and over and I can’t go out in the dining area b/c it’s 21 and over—that could happen—and that would be really suck. [I’d have to be] a lot more sneaky.

On the possibility of more flexibility in OLCC laws:
That would take a lot of worry out of my head. I think the OLCC should be doing a lot more bargaining with us than we do bargaining with them.

STEVE PHARO, executive director of the OLCC

On the state of the proposed amendments:
We still have a public hearing that’s coming up, and we still have our own staff reviewing this minor posting effort. So, as far as being definitive about exactly what it would mean to music venues, I really can’t say b/c it’s not in its final form yet.

On whether any activity besides eating will be able to trump drinking under the new rules:
When drinking is the predominant activity, this will not trump that. That’s part of what we’re wrestling with. Obviously, if it’s a tavern, it doesn’t matter if they’re trying to pull in a band or put in a bowling alley down the side of the tavern, it’s still predominant drinking. They’re not going to have the options under this.

I don’t want to sound evasive in terms of what is going to be okay or not okay, but we’re still trying to craft something that creates flexibility, but also clearly defines it enough so that those folks that have taverns or bars don’t think, “Gee, I can just change this little bit and then qualify.”

On the effect of OLCC rules on music venues:
I don’t know that we take a stand on supporting arts vs. anything else or vice versa. What we’re primarily concerned with is the public safety. When you have drinking environments out there, it can affect anyone from in terms of either over-service or access for underage folks to get liquor. We recognize the very essence of what you’re talking about in supporting arts. Those are sort of the different business models that we’re talking about.

On the possibility of wristbands as part of new control plans:
It’s really the venue and the mechanisms that are within the control plan. Some may outweigh others in terms or being better or not as good in supporting the venue. I think we’d certainly be open to that, but it would premature for me to say that it would be approved or disapproved.

People come up with a lot of new, innovative and oftentimes very good ideas about what to do in terms of what to do, and we want to be able to…sit down with those folks making the proposal. If they can craft the kind of control plan that’s appropriate, and we believe that it will do what it needs to do, then we can meet that flexibility. It’s going to be a challenge for us.

On whether or not amendments to the current rules will actually make a difference:
I don’t think we’d be going through all—believe me, it’s a lot of work—we wouldn’t be going through it if we didn’t think it would make a difference. That’s our job, to work with the applicants as much as we can to see that they can meet their needs while we’re taking care of public safety issues from our end.

On groups who may worry that new control plans would make it easier for kids to drink:
We would hope that everyone would understand that, when we approve approved control plans or work with this rule, we’re not in any way, shape or form trying to lessen the interest we have in the public safety. The control plans give us a flexible way to do what we intend to do to [anyway]. It’s an effort to recognize that times change, things change.

CARY CLARKE, Founder of PDX Pop Now! and member of At Dusk

On Oregon’s liquor laws:
I think it’s been a rough 50 years or whatever for all ages venues in Oregon. I don’t think the laws have ever been particularly forgiving. I honestly do think that is the main issue [for PDX Pop Now! to tackle]. I mean, whether ethically we want it to be true or not, most venues stay in business because of alcohol sales. And not allowing a venue to do that and admitting minors effectively shuts down all-ages venues. And I definitely think that is not something that encourages teen drinking. There are a lot of easier ways to get drunk than go to a venue, trick a bartender…like raiding their friend’s liquor closet, it’s not going to venues.

On the effect of OLCC rules on underage drinking:
It’s just pushed underground, in a place where it isn’t regulated at all. And sometimes literally, bootlegging, someone serving home brew. On the other hand, what seems to be a double standard in the laws where on the one hand they aren’t acknowledging a small space, like the Valentine’s where you can see what everyone is doing, especially in the crow’s nest you can see what ever one is doing whereas in the Rose garden, has what 20,000 people or something and alcohol is served there. It would be just as easy if an adult to bought a beer and gave it to a kid in the Rose Garden as it would be in a hundred-person venue. It’s a thousand times easier, because there’s no one policing that, there’s not nearly enough security or personnel at the Rose Garden to make sure that minors aren’t drinking, yet there’s no requirement made about their being a barricade or a wristband.

On the OLCC’s classification of music venues:

It’s not dealt with in the current laws, and that’s one of the problems. The minor postings laws are blue laws, and the language is so antiquated, it’s like, they refer to dance halls, that don’t even make sense unless you’re living in Deadwood or something. You have to think about what kind of an institution this might be. The minor posting is literally the plague you have on your wall saying no minors at this place, during this time, and right now there are five of them that you can have. But in addition to those five different kinds, there is a huge list of exceptions that says if you have this kind of place, you can get away with this kind of thing, and you get this special, through some weird clause fit into this minor posting that it seems like you don’t fit into. The exceptions are too hyper specific and too old. They refer to dance halls, which, a music club isn’t a dance hall, and they refer to seated performance venues, which, the music venues we go to aren’t seated. And I went to the OLCC to talk to them about this, they didn’t realize it. The way that people at the OLCC were thinking of music venues that we might go to were seated places like the Aladdin or the Schnitz or something like that. So because they’re not seated, and because they’re not dance halls, they get trapped into this no man’s land that by default makes them bars. And when you’re a bar, the minor posting you’re going to get is no minor’s allowed.

On music and teaching:
It’s amazing to see, as a teacher, someone who’ll never been excited or engaged about anything, a song that comes on and their whole relationship to the world will change for a second…having kids involved and giving to them that natural spot on the front wave of local music enthusiasts would really push [the Portland music scene] over the top. I think that’s the number one thing lacking in Portland, as great as it is musically. There’s a huge hole at in the heart of the music community, and that belongs to people under 21.

I’ve been to a lot of amazing shows in Portland. I’ve had a lot of profound personal experiences seeing the great music being made by my friends and neighbors, as well as people I don’t know. But by far the most powerful live music experience I’ve ever had was the Park Rose Middle School show where the Shaky Hands and Alela Diane played, and Soul P and Syndel played. And part of that I have a relationship to the kids who were a part of it, but the unbridled joy that kids seeing live music for literally the first time express stands in such stark contrast to the jaded hipster audiences you see in town. It just seems so obvious that bringing those people into the local music community could only be good, not only spiritually, but in all the more practical ways that we talked about.

SHANNON STEWART, director of the All-ages Movement Project and co-founder of the Vera Project
This email was in response to a request for any information on all-ages research Stewart might have.
Your request is another such example of why I would like to get research
funding to study this exact predicament. I have collected a lot of random
stories but I have not, in effect, studied state liquor laws effects on
culture as it varies from state to state and city to city. Nor have I found
papers on this.

…

What I know is that states like California and New York as well as several
other states on the east coast and in the south have laws that require only
stamps or wristbands for minors to enter a music club with few issues. From
a public safety standpoint, it’s much better to have young people in legit
public spaces where there are certain laws in place to protect them—e.g.
there are staff in place to prevent predation, illegal drinking and drug use
whereas at house shows or underground parties, it’s a self-policing thing
where you cross your fingers and hope for the best.

To really tow that line, however, underestimates the ability of people to
create safe and accessible communities themselves in a multitude of
different kinds of spaces. Basements, warehouses, and alternative spaces
for music and art have much more freedom artistically and usually incubate
the next generation of successful artists. It’s good to have the kind of
exchanges between teens and adults that happen in those spaces where there
is usually a lot of drive, passion and work ethic to provide cultural
experiences to all kinds of people.

…

Finally, I think the thing that good legislators know is that it’s not
enough to just say its okay or not okay to do something. You have to put
resources towards what you WANT to see.

Good luck,
Shannon

SKYLER NORWOOD, Point Juncture, WA and local producer

On PJWA’s “never say no” house show policy:
Well, they’re so much better than any venue show, and it kinda gets rid of any monetary gain or secondhand people. It’s just you and your audience in a house, eye to eye, hopefully a little buzzed. So why not? Every band should have that rule unless you’re Horse Feathers or something. We love house shows very much, so if anybody asks us we always, we just don’t turn them down.

On the house show scene:
It’s free and you can bring your own beer. It’s cheap that way, and you know, Portland—the music scene here in Portland, besides a few individuals, nobody’s got a lot of money. But it’s Friday night in someone’s basement and it’s packed. You can’t go wrong with a house show. With a venue you might have to deal with bad sound or stages being too high. I wouldn’t say that in any way the venue side is losing out, but definitely a lot of the venue shows lack energy. There’s no kids and there’s no dancing.

I think it’s just, what makes house shows so different is that they’re social circles. If a venue isn’t in a social circle or it itself becomes a social circle, you’re just not gonna survive. And plus always having to be low-key and worry about noise (at Artistery) is another stupid thing. They always have to worry about noise and fire departments and stuff. You think Doug Fir ever has to think about the fire department? It’s just fear and worry. I went to two house shows last week and cops showed up to both of them.

On cops:
They never come to parties unless there’s a band playing. Even though any house show I’ve been to there’s never any fights and they’re the most love-fest type of parties. Give the drunks something to watch and let them dance out their booze.

On being young and punk:
But in a weird way I’m glad that there’s not a lot of all-ages shows. The only way to be when you’re young is to fight the establishment. If you’ve got this great haven that’s cool, but look at the X-Ray café and all that shit. I’ve seen so many really great scenes and they all shut down and they end. The whole idea is when you’re young you have to deal with that energy. No one supports you. Obviously you want to be supported, but it’s good when you’re young to have a little struggle. It makes you appreciate the finer things after the fact.

On using a fake:
I remember, I only used a fake ID once in my life and it was to go see Don Caballero at the Satyricon. I was so pissed that all the other shows that I missed—and I really was against that because I was a good kid. But fuck that. Fuck punk bands that are all energetic and exciting playing places where kids can’t see them. It’s just weird, but that’s the way it is. [When touring] what are you going to do, go on –it’s harder to do that. Sometimes on the first pass you won’t find the all-ages place. Because, again, a lot of times they’re weird places…They’re weird and young and they don’t have money. If you opened up a nice all ages place, it wouldn’t work. Look at Meow Meow, both Meow Meow’s—of course great things end and then they build back up again. But if the OLCC loosened up it would be great. Cause I don’t want kids to have to get in trouble and use fake IDs.

ARYA IMIG, KPSU host and house show go-to guy

On his favorite PDX bands:
You know, I don’t know…it changes. Junkface…The Bustling Townships. I’ve seen a lot of punk bands like Autistic Youth—I really love seeing them every time. Funny, I don’t think I’ve ever not seen them in a house…no wait, I saw them at Satyricon. And I guess I used to see them at the IWW hall, when they used to do shows there. Whenever I go to see big bands, like Arctic Monkeys, I’m like…I wish, you know, that could be Autusitic Youth…that could totally be Autistic Youth. They have such a big sound, that belongs on such a big stage. But they’re crippled by these house shows. Well, not crippled, but sort of like a mute on a trumpet.

On the difference between punk and indie rock houses:
Attendees are a lot younger, usually, at punk shows. Pretty much all the attendees are underage, maybe 70% or something. So that’s one thing that’s different. And maybe a little rowdier, crustier. Definitely younger, is the prevailing thing about them, I think. Because, the bands are only playing at houses like that, doing it for themselves. They’re not playing at the Hawthorne, and even if they were playing at the Hawthrone…that’s so unpunk.

On preferring house shows over traditional venues:
Yeah. I think all in all I would. I mean, unless it’s a venue like beloved Food Hole, until they built that stage it was like a house show but it wasn’t because you were on the same level as the bands. That’s another thing really great thing about it, is that you are on the same level as the bands. It feels really egalitarian and democratic and inspiring for young people to go and see, other people their age maybe performing for other people and getting a good response. I would much rather be involved in that house show scene. Then again, if I ever got the opportunity to book a venue, I would.

On the new generation of house-borne bands:
That is one of the biggest things about the scene is right now, is how close knit the community feels. I mean, Speaking for myself, for sure, like, PDX Pop Now! is a really great community. It’s a familial experience to have these bands who are all in my phone pay at the festival, and like get so well received at the festival, and get choice time slots. Like Junkface, Maybe Happening, the Shaky Hands—three of the best performances of the festival outside on that big stage where people were for miles. I’ve seen them at houses before and hung out with them on a social basis. The first time I saw all three of those bands was at a house show.

On forgetting about production values:
It’s really funny…it’s like I’m so immersed in this scene, that I walk into a store, even Everyday Music, and I feel so dirty. I only listen to bands who are on their own labels, or don’t have labels, that don’t release anything, even hand out a CD or demo at shows, that are just on the space. But I still love me some U2 and still love Spoon. I haven’t listened to the last Spoon record in the longest time, and my friend put the record on in his car, and it was so polished and produced. Everything I listen to is so low fi or no fi. And somebody was telling me that somebody was playing Eskimo and Sons for them and they said that they liked it even for all of its low fi. I guess that I can’t even tell the difference. I can tell the difference when it’s way more hi fi than when it’s really lo fi.

Links:
Cover Story
Latest draft of proposed changes to the OLCC’s Minor Postings rules